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18 APRILIS, 1554, INTER DOMINUM HUGONEM LATIMERUM RESPONDENTEM, ET MAGISTRUM SMITH ET DOCTOREM CARTWRIGHT, OPPONENTES. [Harl. MS. 429, Art. 16.]\parDOCTOR WESTON, Prolocutor.
VIRI fratres, convenimus hodie, divini numinis auxilio, profligaturi argumentorum vim et dispersas adversariorum opiniones contra veritatem realis proesentioe corporis et sanguinis Domini in eucharistia. Et tu, pater, si quid habes quod respondeas, admoneo ut responsis succinctis et concisis utaris.
Latimer: I pray you, good master Prolocutor, do not exact that of me which is not in me. I have not these twenty years used any Latin tongue. Prolocutor: Take your case. Latimer: I thank you, sir, I am well. Let me here protest my faith, for I am not able to dispute it; and afterwards do your pleasure with me. The conclusions where unto I must answer are these: 1. In sacramento altaris virtute verbi divini a sacerdote prolati, etc. 2. Post consecrationem non remanet substantia panis, etc. 3. In missa est vivificum ecclesioe sacrificium, etc. Ut supra. Quod ad primam sententiam attinet, videtur mihi illa fact[iciis] quibusdam verbis assectata quandam obscuritatem continere, neque secundum modum sacrarum scripturarum eloqui. Sed quantum assequor, sic respondeo, bona fide, etsi non sine periculo: nimirum ad coenam Domini rite celebrandam non nisi spiritualem Christi proesentiam requiri, et eam sufficere homini christiano, ut per quam in Christo maneamus, et Christum in nobis manentem habeamus, ad consequutionem usque [eternoe vitoe,] si permanserimus. Et hoec ipsa proesentia realis dici potest commodissime, utpote quoe non ficta est, sed vera et frugifera. Idque ego nunc dico, ne nasutulus [quispiam] existimet me non nisi nudum et vacuum signum sacramentum facere, Anabaptistarum more.
Quicquid autem de corporali illa proesentia [fingitur,] illud non nisi pro commento papistico habendum esse puto, et ideo omnino rejiciendum.
Secundam sententiam dicere ausim non [inniti] verbo Dei, sed humanitus adinventam esse, ideoque commentitiam et falsam, quam pene dixerim reliquorum errorum veluti matricem esse. Et quomodo transubstantiatores non videbuntur conspirare cum Nestorianis, viderint ipsi.
Tertia conclusio, quatenus eam intelligo, videtur inimicitias insidiose struere adversus oblationem ab ispsomet Christo factam pro nobis in persona propria, juxta emphaticam illam loquutionem ad Heboeos, Per semetipsum purgatione facta peccatorum nostrorum; et paulo post, ut misericors esset et fidelis pontifex in his quoe apud Deum forent agenda ad expiandum peccatum; ut videatur nostrorum peccatorum [expiatio] magis ex hoc pendere, quod Christus erat pontirex offerens, quam quod erat oblatus; nisi quatenus a seipso oblatus est, ut non sit necesse eum ab aliis offerri: ut ne dicam mirum proesumptuosum id abs quopiam tentari citra vocationem apertam, maxime cum tendat, si non in totum, certe in partem, ad evacuandam crucem Christi. Neque enim est humile quiddam offerre Christum; ut merito dici possit dominis oblatoribus, Qua auctoritate sic facitis, et quis dedit vobis istam auctoritatem, ubi et quando? Non potest homo accipere quicquam, inquit Baptista, nisi fuerit ei datum e coelo; ut honorem proesumere videatur priusquam ad illum vocetur.
Item, Si quis peccaverit, inquit Johannes, non statim subdit, sacrificum habeat domi conductum, qui sacrificet pro eo in missa; sed, Advocatum, inquit, habemus in Jesum Christum, qui semel se ipsum obtulit jam olim, cujus unius oblationis efficacia et durabilis est in sempiternum, ut nullis jam sit opus ejusmodi oblatoribus. Quid sibi Paulus dicendo, Qui altari deserviunt cum altari participant? et subjiciendo, Sic et Dominus ordinavit, ut qui evangelium proedicant ex evangelio vivant? Imo cur [non] subdidit, Sic et Dominus ordinavit, ut qui sacrificant in missa de sacrificando vivant? Ut esset victus nostratis sacrificatoribus destinatus oeque atque veteribus? Imo non habent quod pro suo victu allegent, ut proedicatores habent. Ut videri possit sacrificatorium sacerdotium ordinatione Dei in proedicatorium et concionatorium mutatum esse, et cessasse prorsus oblatorium, nisi [quatenus sumus omnes Christiani sacerdotes sacrificatorii.] Coena Domini instituebatur ad excitandam gratiarum actionem pro oblatione dominica verius quam oblatores ibi agant res suas. Pascite quantum in vobis est gregem Christi, inquit Petrus. Imo, Sacrificate nunc potius quantum in vobis est pro grege Christi, si ita res habeat ut poroetenditur, Et mirum est Petrum tanti muneris oblitum esse, cum hodie tanti habeatur sacrificare, pascere pene nihil apud multos. Quis es si desinas pascere? Bene catholicus. Et quis es, inquam, si desinas sacrificare et missare? Ut minimum hoereticus. Unde hoec papistica judicia, nisi forte existimant se sacrificando pascere? Et tamen quid opus est erudito pastore, cum nemo sit tam stolidus quin facile didicerit sacrificare et missare?
Thus, lo! I have taken the more pain to write, because I refused to dispute in consideration of mine unability there unto, ut omnibus notum esse possit me merito et optimo jure id fecisse. I beseech your mastership to take it in good part, as I have done it with great pain, having not my man to help me, as I have never before been debarred to have. O sir, ye may chance to live until ye come ad hanc oetatem et debilitatem. I have spoken in my time before two kings, more than one, or two, or three hours together, without interruption; rerum sit cum pace [et venia] tua dictum, I could not be suffered to declare my mind before you, no, not to have a quarter of an hour, without snatches, revilings, checks, taunts, rebukes, such as I have not felt the like in such an audience all my life long. Oportuit grave esse periculum. Quid commerueram, quid tandem hoc erat? Forsooth, I had spoke of the four marrowbones of the mass; neque nunquam legeram sic in Spiritum sanctum peccatum esse. I could not be allowed to tell what I meant by the metaphor: but now, sir, by your favor, I will tell your mastership what I meant. The first is the popish consecration, which hath been called Gods bodymaking. The second is transubstantiation. The third is the missal oblation. The fourth the adoration. Meaning by marrowbones the chief and principal portion, parts, points, belonging or incident to the mass, and most esteemed or had in respect in the same: which indeed you may by violence, might, and power, thrust and intruse into sound of words of some places of scripture, with racking, and tramping, injuring and wronging the same; but else they be all indeed clean out of the scripture, as I am thoroughly persuaded, although in disputation I could nothing do to persuade the same to other, being both unapt to study in such reading as should be requisite to the same. I have heard much talking of master doctor Weston, to and fro, in my time; but I never knew your person, to my knowledge, till I came before you as the queens majestys commissioner. I pray God send you as right a judgment as I perceive you have a great wit, great learning, with many other qualities. God give you ever grace well to use them, and ever to have in remembrance, quod qui in altis habitat, humilia respicit; and also, quod non est consilium adversus Dominum; and also that this world hath been and is a tottering world; and yet again, quod tametsi obediendum sit principibus, yet that hath his limitation, nempe, in Domino, non contra Dominum: for whosoever doth obey them contra Dominum, they be most pernicious to them, and the greatest adversaries they have; for they do to the procurement of Gods vengeance upon them, si Deus modo sit solus pater. Sunt quidam sic mente corrupti ut quibus adempta sit veritas, existimantes quoestum esse pietatem; great learned men, et tamen nihil scientes, sed insanientes circa quaestiones et disputationum pugnas; nihil scientes, inquam, quod non noverint Christum, ut oportuit, quantumquantum proeterea noverint. Id quod solet dici, Id est nescire, sine Christo plurima scire: Christum si bene scis, satis est si cetera nescis. In quem sensum Paulus aloud Corinthios fatebatur, se nihil scire proeter Jesum Christum, et eum crucifixum. Multi multa blaterant de Christo, qui Christum tamen nesciunt; sed proetexentes Christum ejus gloriam dolose obseurant.
Sejungere ab his, qui ejusmodi sunt, saith St Paul to Timothy. Pulchrum fuerit meminisse quod Augustinus dixerit, etiamsi locus non occurrit, nisi contra litteras Petiliani habeatur: Quisquis tradit necessario credendum quod non sit legalibus vel evangelicis litteris contentum, anathema sit.
Cavete vobis ab hoc anathemate, si sapiris. Et multum fallor si non simile quiddam habeat Basilius in hunc modum: Quicquid extra divinam scripturam est, si tradatur ut necessario credatur, peccatum est. Cavete vobis ab hoc peccati genere. Sunt qui dicunt, multa falsa multis veris probabiliora et verisimiliora. Therefore Paul giveth a watch word: Ne quis vobis imponat, inquit, probabilitate sermonis. Sed quorsum hoec, inquis, mihi? Sed est ut sinas senem interdum suaviter ineptire et veluti puellum quendam denuo agere. O Deum immortalem! You have changed sacratissimam communionem in privatam actionem; and you deny to the laity the Lords cup, contra proeceptum Domini; and you do blemish the annunciation of the Lords death till he come: for you have changed the common prayer, called divine service, with the ministration of Christs sacraments, from the vulgar and known language in peregrinam linguam, contrary to the will of the Lord revealed in his word. Deus aperiat tibi ostium cordis tui ad videndum quoe videnda sunt in hac parte. I would as fain obey my sovereign as any subject in this realm; but in these things I can never do it with an upright conscience. Deus misereatur nostri!
Prolocutor: Then refuse you to dispute? Will you then subscribe? Latimer: No, good master: I pray you be good to an old man; you may, if it please God, be once old, as I am. Ye may come ad hanc oetatem, atque etiam ad bane debilitatem. Prolocutor: Ye said upon Saturday last, that ye could not find the mass nor the marrowbones thereof in your book; but we will find a mass in that book. Latimer: No, good master doctor, ye cannot. Prolocutor: What find ye then there? Latimer: Forsooth, a communion I find there. Prolocutor: Which communion; the first, or the last? Latimer: I find no great diversity in them; they are one supper of the Lord. But I like the last very well. Prolocutor: Then the first was naught, belike? Latimer: I do not remember wherein they differ. Prolocutor: Then cakebread and loafbread are all one with you. Ye call it the supper of the Lord; but ye are deceived in that, for they had done their supper before. And therefore the scripture saith, Postquam coenatum est; for ye know St Paul findeth fault with the Corinthians, for that some of them were drunken at this supper: and ye know none can be drunken at your communion. Latimer: The first was called Coena Judaica, when they did eat the paschal lamb together. The other was called Coena Dominica. Prolocutor: That is false; for Chrysostom denieth that: and St Ambrose saith, that mysterium eucharistice inter coenandum datum non est Coma Dominica, in cap. 10:1 . ad Corinth.: and Gregorius Nazianzenus affirmeth the same: Rursus paschce sacra cum discipulis in coenaculo, ac post coenam, dieque unica ante passionem celebrat; nos vero ea in orationis domibus, et ante coenam, et post resurrectionem peregimus. And that first supper was called Agape: can you tell what that is? Latimer: Ego non calleo Graece: I understand no Greek; yet I think it meaneth charity. Prolocutor: Will you have all things done that Christ did then? Why, then must the priest be hanged on the morrow. And where find ye, I pray you, that a woman should receive the sacrament? Latimer: Will you give me leave to turn my book? I find it in the eleventh chapter of the first to the Corinthians. I trow, these be his words: Probet seipsum homo. I pray you, good master, cujus generis homo?
Marry, the common gender. Cole: It is in the Greek oJ a]nqrwpov . Harding: It is ajnh>r that is, vir. Latimer: It is in my book of Erasmus translation, Pro bet seipsum homo. Fecknam: It is probet seipsum, indeed, and therefore it importeth the masculine gender. Latimer: What then? I know when the woman touched Christ, he said, Quis tetigit me? Et scio quod aliquis tetigit me. Prolocutor: I will be at host with you anon. When Christ was in his supper, none were with him but his apostles; ergo, he meant no woman, if he will have his institution kept. Latimer: In the twelve apostles was represented the whole church, in the which ye will grant both men and women to be. Prolocutor: So through the whole heretically translated bible ye never make mention of priest, till ye come to the putting of Christ to death.
Where find you then that a priest or minister a minstrel I may call him should do it of necessity? Latimer:~ A minister is a more fit name for that office; for the name of a priest importeth a sacrifice. Prolocutor: Well! Remember that you cannot find that a woman should receive, by scripture. Domino opponens, age. Smith: Quoniam video mihi impositam hanc disputandi tecum provinciam, ut id ratione et methodo fiat, proponam quoestiones tres eo ordine quo mihi proponerentur. Et primo id quoero quod minime vocari debet in quoestionem: sed ea est ecclesioe conditio, ut semper agitetur ab hominibus perfidis. Rogo, num Christi corpus sit realiter in eucharistia? Latimer: I trust I have obtained of my good master Prolocutor, that no man shall exact that thing of me which is not in me; and I am sorry that this worshipful audience shall be deceived of their expectation for my sake.
I have given up my mind in writing to Mr Prolocutor. Smith: Quicquid exhibueris referetur in acta. Latimer: Disputation requireth a good memory, Ast abolita est mihi memoria: my memory is gone clean and marvellously decayed, and never the better, I wis, for the prison. Prolocutor: How long have you been in prison? Latimer: This three quarters of this year. Prolocutor: And I have been in prison these six years. Latimer: The more pity, master. Prolocutor: How long have you been of this opinion? Latimer: It is not long, sir, since I have been of this opinion. Prolocutor: Ye have said mass at Greenwich full devoutly. Latimer: Yea; I cry God mercy heartily for it. Here they hiss and clap their [hands] at him. Prolocutor: Where learned you this newfangledness? Latimer: I have long sought for the truth in this matter of the sacrament; and have now been of this mind past seven years; and my lord of Canterburys book hath specially confirmed [my] judgment herein. If I could remember all therein contained, I would not fear to answer any in this matter. Tresham: There are in that book six hundred errors. Prolocutor: You were once a Lutheran. Latimer: No; I was a papist; for I never could perceive how Luther could defend his opinion without transubstantiation. The Tigurines wrote a book against Luther; and I oft desired God that he might [live] so long to make them an answer. Prolocutor: Luther, in his book de Privata Missa, saith that the devil reasoned with him and persuaded him the mass was not good, fol. 14, Contingit me, etc.: whereof it may appear that Luther said mass, and that the devil dissuaded him from it. Latimer: I do not take in hand here to defend Luthers sayings or doings; if he were here, he would defend himself, I trow: I told you before, I am not meet for disputation. I pray you read mine answer, wherein I have declared my faith. Prolocutor: Do ye behove this as ye have written? Latimer: Yea, sir. Prolocutor: Then ye have no faith. Latimer: Then would I be sorry, sir. Tresham: <430601>John scribitur, Nisi manducaveritis carnem Filii hominis, et biberitis ejus sanguinem, non habebitis vitam in vobis. Quod cum audissent Capernaitoe multique ex discipulis Christi, dixerunt, Durus est hic sermo, etc. Ut ergo veritas ipsa magis sit dilucida, hic abs to quoero, an Christus hoec dicens intellexit de carne sun ore manducanda, an de spirituali manducatione ejusdem? Latimer: Ut Augustinus sensit, ego respondeo: Christurn intellexisse de carne sua spiritualiter manducanda. Tresham: De qua carne intelligebat Christum, vera necne? Latimer: De sua vera carne spiritualiter manducanda per fidem, non sacramentaliter in cema. Tresham: .De qua carne intelligebant Capernaitoe? Latimer: De vera quoque carne, sed ore sumenda. Tresham: Illi, ut fateris, de vera carne ore sumenda sentiebant, et Christus, ut probabo etiam, de carne sua ore sumenda loquebatur. Utrique ergo de unius [rei] manducatione, quoe corpotis ore perficitur, intelligebant. Latimer: Non de ore corporeo intellexit Christus, sed de ore spiritus, animi, et cordis. Tresham: Contra probo quod Christus intelligit de manducatione quoe ore corporeo fit. Nam consuetudo cum sit optima rerum magistra et interpres, cumque acta proestita a Christo certo declarent, quoe scepius dixerat, factum Christi in coena sua, ubi tradidit corpus ore sumendum, una cum consuetudine ex eo tempore de monducatione quoe ore fit recepta, evidenter infert Christum de oris manducatione intellexisse verba Johnnis 6, hic a me citata. Latimer: Non tradidit corpus suum ore sumendum, sed sacramentum corporis tradebat ori, corpus autem menti. Tresham: At ratio mea concludit Christum sua verba protulisse de carne sua ore corporeo sumenda: nam alioqui (quod absit!) is fuisset impostor, et scandalisasset Capernaitas et discipulos suos, si non intellexissent sicut illum in hoc intellexisse sentiebant. Si vero ut tu comminisceris, sensisset ille, facillime eis dicere potuisset, Non comedotis carnem meum ore, sod sacramentum carnis meoe, non rem ipsam, sed ipsius rei figuram ore sumetis; et satisfecisset eis. At sic non dixit, sed proestitit in veritate verborum suorum prout sonabant. Id ipsum ergo intelligebat Christus quod et Capernaitoe, quoad rem ipsam ore sumendam; nempe quod ejus vera caro vere est ore manducanda. Ad hoec, quoniam per corpus Christi sacramentum corpotis Christi interpretaris, atque hinc non nisi spiritualem sive mentalem unionem inter nos et Christum consequi putas; to multum in hac re hallucinari, et a patrum sententiis exorbitare palam est. Nam illi nos Christo corporaliter et realiter, carnaliter conjungi disertis verbis asseverant, Hilarii quidem verba hoec sunt: Si vere igitur carnem corporis nostri Christus assumpsit, et vere homo ille, qui ex Maria natus fuit, Christus est, nos quoque sub mysterio carmem corpotis Christi sumimus, et per hoec unum erimus, quia Pater in illo est et ille in nobis: quomodo voluntatis unitas asseritur, cum naturalis per sacramentum proprietas perfecte sacramentum sit unitatis.
Hac ille. En, vides quam manifeste hoec verba assertionem tuam confundunt. Denique, ego ipse audivi to coram rege Henrico octavo Grenewychii concionantem, ubi de vera et reali proesentia corporis [dominici] in sacramento nulli Christiano dubitandum esse palam docebas, propterea quod verbum scripturoe habebat [nempe], Hoc est corpus meum,[quo confirmetur]; et nunc ea veritas idem scripturoe verbum habet quod tum habuit: quid ergo modo negas, de quo prius to docente dubitare non licuit? Latimer: Will ye give me leave to speak? Tresham: Latine, quoeso, loquaris. Potes enim, si vis, sat prompte loqui Latine. Latimer: I cannot speak Latin so long and so large: my good master hath given me leave to speak English. And as for the words of Hilary, I think they make not so much for you. But he that shall answer the doctors had no need to be in my case; but should have them in a readiness, and know their purpose. Melancthon saith, if the doctors had foreseen that they should have been so taken in this controversy, they would have written more plainly. Smith: Ego reducam verba Hilarii in flexure dialecticum: Qualis est unitas carnis nostroe cum Christi carne, talis est, imo major, unitas Christi cum Patre: sed unitas carnis Christi cum nostra est vera et substantialis; ergo unitas Christi cum Patre vera est et substantialis. Latimer: Ego non intelligo. Seton: Ego novi eruditionem tuam, et quam sis versipellis. Paucis tecum again, idque ex Cypriano, de Coena Domini: Vetus Testamentum prohibet haustum sanguinis: novum proecipit haustum et gustum sanguinis. Sed ubi proecipit haustum sanguinis novum Testamentum? Latimer: His verbis, Bibite ex hoc omnes. Seton: Ergo verum sanguinem gustamus. Latimer: Gustamus verum sanguinem, sed spiritualiter. Seton: Imo novum et vetus Testamentum in hoc dissentiunt; nam alterum jubet, alterum vetat sanguinem bibere. Latimer: Verum est quoad rem, non quoad modum rei. Seton: Jam nulla est contrarietas inter haustum sanguinis in novo Testamento cum veteri. Nam et illi bibebant spiritualiter. Latimer: Et nos spiritualiter; sed nos pretiosiorem sanguinem bibimus. Prolocutor: Augustinus in <194501>Psalm 45:Secure bibite sanguinem quem fudistis: ergo sanguinem bibimus. Latimer: I never denied it; nor never will go from it, but that we drink the very blood of Christ indeed, but spiritually. For the same St Augustine saith, Crede, et manducasti. Prolocutor: Nay, credere non est edere nec bibere: you will not say, I pledge you, when I say, I believe in God. Is not manducare in your learning put for credere 2 Latimer: Yes, sir. Prolocutor: I remember my lord chancellor demanded Mr Hooper of these questions, whether edere were credere; and altare, Christus, in all scripture; and he answered, Yea. Then, said my lord chancellor, why then habemus altare de quo non licet edere, is as much to say as, habemus Christum in quem non licet credere. Tresham: Crede, et manducasti, dicitur de spirituali manducatione. Latimer: Verum est: probo quod dicis, ego enim sic sentio. Prolocutor: We are commanded to drink blood in the new law; ergo, it is very blood. Latimer: We drink blood so as appertains to us to drink to our comfort, in sacramental uses, sacramentaliter: he gave us to drink it spiritually; he went about to shew that, as certainly as we drink wine, so certainly we drink his blood spiritually. Prolocutor: Where find you that sacramentaliter in Gods book? Latimer: It is necessarily gathered upon scripture. I was in a thing, and I have forgotten it. Prolocutor: But vetus Testamentum prohibet gustum sanguinis, novum autem proecipit. Latimer: Verum est, non quoad rem, sed quoad modum. Prolocutor: Hear, ye people, this the argument. That which was forbidden in the old Testament is commanded in the new. To drink blood was forbidden in the old Testament, and it is commanded in the new; ergo, it is very blood that we drink in the new. Latimer: It is commanded to be drunken spiritually: I grant it is blood that is drunken in the new Testament; but we receive spiritually. Pius: It was not forbidden spiritually to be drunken in the old law. Latimer: Substantia sanguinis bibitur; sod non eodem modo. Pius: Non requirit eundem modum bibendi. Latimer: It is the same thing, not the same manner.
I have no more to say. Prolocutor: Adfero locum e Chrysostomo, De proditione Judas: O Judas dementia! Ille cum Judasis paciscebatur ut triginta denariis Christum venderet; et Christus ei sanguinem, quem vendidit, offerebat. Latimer: Fateor, offerebat Judas sanguinem strum, quem ille vendiderat; sed in sacramento. Prolocutor: Because ye cannot defend your doctors no better; ye shall see what worshipful men ye hang upon, and one that hath been of your mind shall dispute with you. Master Cartwright, pray you dispute. Cartwright: Reverendissime pater, quoniam mihi datum est in mandatis ut tecum disputere, faciam libens; sod hoc primum scias, me in eodem tecum errore fuisse. Sed poenitet me; fateor me errasse; confiteor peccatum mourn, et opto rogoque Deum, ut tu pariter resipiscas. Latimer: Will ye give me to tell what hath caused master doctor to recant here? It is causa legis, the pains of the law, which hath brought you back and converted you and many more, the which letteth many to confess God; et hoc magnum est argumentum. There are but few here but can dissolve it. Cartwright: That is not my cause; but I will make you this short argument, by which I was converted from my errors. Si verum corpus Christi non sit realiter in eucharistia, ecclesia erravit integra et tota ab apostolorum tem, peribus: sed Christus noluit ecclesiam suam errare; ergo, est yore corpus Christi. Latimer: Ecclesia papistica erravit et errat. I think, for the space of six or seven hundred year, there was no mention made of any eating but spiritually; for these five hundred years the church did ever confess a spiritual manducation. But ecclesia Romana peperit errorem transubstantiationis. My lord of Canterburys book handleth that matter very well, and by him I could assure you, if I had time. Cartwright: Linus et reliqui omnes fatentur corpus Christi esse in sacramento, et Augustinus quoque fatetur esse adorandum in <199801>Psalm 98. Latimer: Ego non dico doctores errasse. Adoramus eum in coelo, et adoramus itidem Christum in eucharistia. Missalica adoratio non est adhibenda. Smith: Putas Cyrillum fuisse ex veterum ecclesia? Latimer: Ita. Smith: Is ait Christum habitare in nobis corporaliter. Latimer: Illud corporaliter habet aliam significationem quam vos crasse putatis. Smith: Per communionem corpotis Christi Christus habitat in nobis corporaliter. Latimer: The solution hereof is [in] my lord of Canterburys book. Smith: Cyril was no papist, and yet these be his words: Christus habitat in nobis corporaliter. Sed tu dicis habitare in nobis spiritualiter. Latimer: Ego utrumque dico. Habitat et corporaliter in nobis, et spiritualiter, secundum ejus intelligentiam; spiritualiter per fidem, et corporaliter per assumptionem nostroe carnis. For I remember I have read this in my lord of Canterburys book. Prolocutor: For because your learning is let to farm, and shut up in my lord of Canterburys book, I will recite unto you St Ambrose, De Apparatione ad Missam. Vidimus principem sacerdotem ad nos venientem et offerentem sanguinem, etc. Et Augustinum in <193301>Psalm 33 .; et Chrysostomus De Incomprehensibili Dei Natura, homilia tertia, Non solum homines, etc. Latimer: I am not ashamed to acknowledge mine ignorance, and these testimonies are more than I can bear away. Prolocutor: Then you must leave some of them behind you for lack of carriage. Latimer: But as concerning Chrysostom, he hath many figurative speeches and emphatical locutions in many places, as in that ye have now recited; but he saith not, for the live and the dead; he taketh the celebration for the sacrifice. Prolocutor: Audies Chrysostomum iterum, in nonum caput Actorum:
Quid dicis? Hostia in manibus sacerdotis. tie doth not call it a cup of wine. Latimer: You have mine answer in a paper with you; and yet he calleth it not propitiatorium sacrificium. Prolocutor: You shall hear it to be so. Et adduco allium locum eodem loco ex Chrysostomo: Non temere est ab apostolis institutum, etc. Latimer: He is too precious a thing for us to offer. He offereth himself. Prolocutor: There is another place of Chrysostom, Ad populum Antiochenum, Horn. 69, et ad Philippenses. He saith there should be a memory and sacrifice for the dead. Latimer: I say it needeth, or it booteth, not. Prolocutor: St Augustine, in Enchiridio, cap. 110: Non est negandum defunctorum animas pietate suorum viventium relevari, cum pro illis sacrificium mediatoris offertur. Where he proveth the verity of Christs body, and praying for the dead. Latimer: Augustine is a reasonable man; he requireth to be believed no farther than he bringeth scripture for his proof and agreeth with Gods word. Prolocutor: In the same place he proveth a propitiatory sacrifice, and that upon an altar, and no oysterboard. Latimer: It is my Lords table, and it may be called an altar, and so the d[octors call] it in many places. But there is no propitiatory sacrifice, only Christ. The doctors might be dec[eived] in some points, and not in all things. I believe them w[hen] they say well. Cole: Is it not a shame for an old man to lie? You say you are of those fathers faith where they say well, etc. Latimer: I am of their faith when they say well. I refer my f[aith] to my lord of Canterbury wholly herein. Smith: Then you are not of Chrysostoms faith; nor of St Augustines faith. Latimer: I have said, when they say well and bring scripture for [proof], I am of their faith, and further Augustine requireth not to be believed. Prolocutor: Origen, Horn. 13. in Leviticum. Latimer: I have one word to say. Panis sacramentalis is called a propitiation, because it is a sacrament of propitiation. Where is your vocation? Prolocutor: My vocation now is to dispute. Latimer: Nay, where are ye called to offer? Prolocutor: Hoc facite; for facite in that place is taken for offerte. Latimer: Is facere nothing but sacrificare? Why, then no man must receive the sacrament but priests only: for there may no man offer but priests; ergo, there may none receive but priests. Prolocutor: Negandum argumentum. Latimer: For whom did Christ offer at his supper? Pius: For all the world. Prolocutor: Augustine, 51:9, Confess. ca. 9. Prolocutor: Ten years ago whither could ye have gone to have found your doctrine? Latimer: The more cause we have to thank God, that he has now sent the light into the world. Prolocutor: Light! Light and lewd preachers. For ye could not tell what ye might have: ye altered and changed so often your communion and your orders, and all for this one intent, to spoil and rob the church. Latimer: These things pertain nothing to me. I must not answer for other mens deeds, but only for mine own. Prolocutor: Well, master Latimer, this is our intent, to will you well, and to exhort you to redire ad cor, and to remember that extra navem Nooe non est salus. Remember what they have been that were the beginners of your doc trine; none but a few fleeting apostates running out of Germany for fear of the fagot. Remember what they have been that have set forth the same in this realm, a sort of flingbrains and lightheads, which were never constant in any thing, as it was to be seen in turning of the table, where, like a sort of apes, they could not tell which way to turn their tail; looking one day east, another west, another day south, another north.
They will be like, they say, to the apostles. They will have no churches; a hovel is good enough for them. They came to the communion with no reverence. They get them a tankard, and one saith, I drink, and I am thankful. The more joy of thee, saith another. And in that was it truth that Hilary saith: Annuas et menstruas de Deo fides facimus. A renegade Scot made such an heresy that Christ was not God, and patched it in the last communion book, so well was that accepted. You never agreed with the Tigurines or Germans, or with the church, or with yourselves. Your stubbornness cometh of vain glory, which is to no purpose; for it will do you no good when the fagot is at your beard: and we see all, by your own confession, how little cause you have to be stubborn, for your learning is in feoffers hold. The queens grace is merciful [if] you will turn. Latimer: You shall have no hope in me to turn. I pray for the queen daily from the bottom of my heart, that she may turn from this religion. Prolocutor: Here you see the w[ic]k[ed]ness of here[sy] against the truth. He denieth all truth and all the old fathers. Latimer: I will not believe in the sacrament and sacrifice.